I know this question is kind of hard to hear and ever harder to try and approach honestly, but I think it is a valid one. I came across a pretty interesting web site this week while doing research for a marriage counseling session. The site was designed to convince people of all faiths (though it does make an emphasis on the Christain faith) that the God they believed in was imaginary. The premise is that all you have come to believe about God is purly a product of the human imagination. The publisher, who remained nameless, presented several arguments, even in video format that “exposed” for me the reality that God is a figment of my imagination.
The search that got me to this particular site was one I was doing on divorce rates. This search lead me to the many findings on the divorce rate among Christians. This very intelligent person (Rom 1:21-23) used the high divorce rate among Christians as one of his arguments against the existence of God. He claims the apparent weakness in Christian marriages proves that God is not making our marriages stronger and therefore God is imaginary. His strongest argument (1 Cor 1:27), in his opinion, is the fact that God never heals amputees. Why would God heal internal diseases and illnesses, but not heal amputees? It’s interesting to me that he thinks God’s ultimate goal for creation is to regrow my shop teachers missing finger.
This site did make me ask some serious questions though. It made me wonder if some of us aren’t following an imaginary God. A God that is not the authentic, true God. It wouldn’t be that rediculuos of a notion. If there is anything that the Old Testament points to it is the reallity that God’s people tend to follow false god’s even in the presence of the One True God. I think idolatry creeps in when our faith becomes more ritual and tradition than active and real. When we just go through the motions of our religion we lose the heart of what it really means to follow Christ. James touches on this when he says:
“What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”
This makes me wonder if the problem isn’t that God is imaginary, but that our faith is. It seems to me that we present a faith that only relies on belief and ritual. At what point have we been challenged or challenged one another to live out our faith? Faith has become a subject for one morning a week and for many faith has become a subject only fit for children.
What if God’s people were to awaken. What if God brought life back to these bones of ours and the spirit would return to the body?
I have asked myself over the last couple days whether I am a person of faith or of ritual. Of life or of death? Is everything I do in life an extension of my faith or of something else? When I wake up do I start my day in faith or something else? Am I fueled and acting out in faith or am I fueled and acting out in selfish ambition, jealousy, idolatry, addiction, pride, etc.?
Willy Wonka asked the question (Gene Wilder, not the freaky Johnny Depp version) that I think gets to the reality of change that needs to take place in our lives. He said, “Where is fancy bread? In the heart or in the head?” What changes first? The will to do something, or the decision to go and do it. Faith is responding to the word of God. I think many of us our sitting back and waiting until God gets us to the point that we feel like helping our neighbors and loving our families. We are waiting for God to get us to the point where we feel like praying, learning, meditating, growing, serving.
I think God is waiting for us to get to the point where we will act out on our faith, despite the fact that we don’t feel like doing these things.
Ethan,
It is clear that the writer has never read the New Testament. This is a test.
[...] Ethan at The Nettle and The Myrtle asks, “Is God Imaginary?“ This makes me wonder if the problem isn’t that God is imaginary, but that our faith [...]
Thank you for your thoughts. As I read the Church Fathers, I realized that the idea that you could make Jesus your Savior and not also make Him Lord of your life was unheard of early church.
I came to your blog to let you know that I linked to this entry today in my blog.
Jesus was a horse thief and women are not able to teach or even really talk according to the New Testament.
Hero,
Very provocative.
I can only assume that by horse thief, you are referring to Jesus sending his disciples to retrieve a donkey:
Matt 21:1-3
1 As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, tell him that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”
While I certainly understand how this could offend you so (after all, who doesn’t hate a horse thief) I wonder if you missed the idea that the owner would be willing to send the donkey once he realized its requested use. Secondly, there is no indication that Jesus kept the donkey after he entered Jerusalem. These things actually occurred days before he was executed and no witnesses came forward at his trial accusing him of taking their donkey. Had he kept the donkey, the authorities would have at least had something to charge him with.
Clearly you have had a recent horse theft in your own life and you are projecting your ill feelings you have toward the yellow bellied rustler that wronged you upon Jesus, who has offered himself for you willingly on the cross. While I am deeply moved by your recent loss, it is only loving for me to tell you that this response is incorrect and I fear you may have trouble accepting God’s grace because you have not been willing to forgive the horse thief in your life. Forgiveness is a difficult thing, but once you have jumped in the saddle of God’s love, you will see that it is worth the ride, and it’s a horse you can never lose.
As far as women in the New Testament, I’m confused. Check this verse out:
Titus 2:3
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.
Clearly women are told to teach in this verse.
Also, I am wondering where in your vast research of the New Testament you have found a verse that describes the sign language the women were to use. This is peculiar and I am a little embarrassed to confess that I am not as well studied as you in this matter. Jesus spoke directly with a woman on several occasions, and he never silenced one of them. Neither did he teach them any type of sign language as an alternate means of communication. As a matter of fact the only people Jesus did silence were men. (Mark 8:33, Matt. 22:41-46)
Very well stated Ethan. Was wondering how you deal with sites such as God is imaginary 50 simple proofs? I need help. J
The thing to remember with this site is that the author is just as much drawing you to his beleifs as much as any religious material. Are these really solid theological arguments? “Jesus has never appeared to me therefore He doesn’t exist?”
The reallity is that we all put our faith in some direction. We all look to some form of god. This could be money, power, knowledge (science), etc. Even our own strength can be our god.
This site claims that God isn’t there because He hasn’t appeared to every person in the world, and afterall this would be a much better way of dealing with man than God’s current system. Man would certainly respond better to God if He appeared to us. This is an argument made without any consideration of the scriptures. God appearing to people did not win their love toward Him. Quite the contrary in the execution of Jesus. How can this man make rational arguments when he clearly hasn’t even read the very document he is “disproving”. I’m all for intelegent discussion on the existence of God, but these arguments are shallow.
Best bet is to investigate for yourself. Read the scriptures and make your own conclusions on whether they are valid for your life. If you do that you will have surpassed most critics in approaching your questions about God and the bible.
The guy is not drawing you to his beliefs. He providing you with the means to think for yourself. That’s all.
Blank,
Thanks for the post bro.
I’m wondering in what way you feel my faith in God is hindering me from thinking for myself?
Why is it that his answers to the universe are better thought out than mine?
With respect ethan, I think what blank meant was that in the Christian faith, much as any other faith I’d imagine, indoctrination clouds reason.
I’ve been reading through all of the “proofs” with some interest, and I do think that several of the arguments used there aren’t reasonable or fairly presented.
That having been said though, I haven’t found any responses from anyone within the faith that actually deal with any of his arguments head-on. Instead, much as you did, they pick out his most obviously silly points to try and discredit the argument.
Why is that, do you suppose?
(and you spell it: intelligent)
Graydon,
(Thanks for respectfully editing my post.)
If you seriously haven’t found any honest attempts at answering these questions you haven’t been looking very hard. There are over 2000 years of texts written addressing these arguments so exhaustive you could dedicate a lifetime in graduate studies to master them.
You can start by looking into Augustine of Hippo, Justin Martyr, Thomas Aquinas and end with C.S. Lewis, Norman Geisler and Lee Strobel.
Check these sources out before you allow others to make up your mind for you.
Hey Ethan.
mmm… not quite what I had in mind, but your point is duly noted, and you’re probably right that I haven’t looked hard enough. I’ll use those references that you have suggested.
The problem with your answer is that most people can’t dedicate their life to studying the literature of christianity. In a way, this answer only underlines the point that the complexity of the argument is designed to confuse people rather than clarify it. Why is it not more simple? It should be.
Again, I’d like to say that there is much in the “50 simple proofs” posting that I don’t agree with, and the repetition of many arguments contained therein is a form of hypnosis which I reject out of hand, yet despite this, many of the points are valid in my mind, and so they will be to many people who read them.
Certainly I’m not one to accept everything I read at face value, and I am in no way looking at this posting in order to make my mind up. I am, however, looking for someone to take the “proofs” and provide an argument against them. As I am someone who does not have the education in theology (or whichever background is best suited for the purpose) to be able to do this, I am looking for someone who has, or even someone who has not, but will try anyway. I am loathe to accept that christians will simply turn their heads and say: this is not worthy of a response.
(greetings to you all from sunny South Africa)
Consider that we’re all in the middle of something in this [physical] place that is like the belly of a pregnant woman, and while we’re in here we hear murmurings outside, and we cannot make out exactly what it is, but we know that it’s familiar, and we can’t even make out the real nature of where we happen to be at the moment. In the end, we’re ‘birthed’ to the ‘real’. While here, we see ‘pictures’ that tell us in symbol what’s going on with us, and what’s on the outside, in dreamlike fashion we get these symbols, but they’re just dreams. And it doesn’t really matter what we believe while we’re in here, because the final destination is going to happen, and we will be ejected (we’ll be awakened, as ‘a oneness’ of the two who set this whole thing into motion). Faith or no faith, we all end up in the same place, as the same person. Jesus said it well when asked about the 7 brothers who all married the same wife, concerning whose wife she would be in the afterworld? He said, ‘you err, because you don’t understand the power of God.’ People err because they don’t realize that this is a dream, and God suffers everyone to be wrong. It would be as ridiculous to expect someone in this world to know their situation as it would be to expect a baby in his mother’s womb to explain his surroundings.
Is Jesus crying into His beer over His ineptness to bring about world peace and harmony or is He, sword in mouth, rooting for good ol’ USA in some future final showdown with Islamic forces, waiting to decide who gets into Heaven when the World is ripped from our children because we wouldn’t let go of some ancient comforter?
Is Jesus happy with his plan for Mankind so far?
Ethan, I like this topic a lot. So much, in fact, that I’ve helped to build up a forum around it. Feel free to stop by and contribute if you like. Just click my name for the link. Thanks. : )
Jake
Lol. To ask that question ‘the mule’, you assume that everyone knows what His full plan is. Or at least, someone does.
Otherwise, how can we say whether Jesus is happy with the plan, when we’re not even sure what that plan’s details are? I doubt even the Pope(who’s supposedly infallible or something) knows even 1%.
Not only that, you load the earlier two questions, just as dice is loaded, and you ask two questions, both of which are completely inapplicable to ‘Jesus’.
It is like asking a fish, “Did you enjoy flying with the eagles today?”, or a rock “How is your wife? Is she well after the pregnancy?”
Now, you asking a God who is supremely loving yet holy, infinite in power yet willing to offer freedom of choice: “Are you sad about your failure? Are you uncaring about us, and only caring about your spiritual real estate plan?”
A fish does not fly; it swims. A rock has no family; it is not living.
The God of the Bible does not fail; He overcame everything. The God of the Bible is no respecter of persons or situations; He is Lord over the Storm.
It may seem as though our ‘world is ripped from our children’ sometimes, but you know something? Considering the lousy way we’ve been taking care of Earth and our lives, there’s something much better:
The World rests in His hands. He knows well beyond what we see; our lives are but pinpricks to His timeless existence, and so He knows ultimately everything that is going on and why and what.
As an aside, I believe that just so we could decide whether to follow Him or not, so came the other decisions.
“Should we make war on others?”
“Should we make lives of others better?”
“Should we take what we want to take, by force?”
“Should we love our enemies even when they kill us?”
You see, the Plan doesn’t seem like much of a plan, yet it has be the most intricate one, because each one of us can decide whether to love and obey, or to hate and rebel. That choice is, IMO, the reason why your so-called ‘ineptness to bring about world peace and harmony’ is taking place.
I talk too much to someone who could be just a troll. XD